When you are making your redstone suggestions, please note that Java and Bedrock will not have the exact same the same redstone systems - this would require redoing redstone system completely on one platform or the other. The two systems are functionally different and are going to stay that way. Please be sure to tag your suggestions with (Java) or (Bedrock).

← Redstone
75
Follow

Let's talk about Redstone! [Java Snapshot 24w33a]

Pinned

We are trying out some new redstone features in this snapshot. We know redstone changes are scary, so please note that the experimental features behind this toggle are not aimed at any future release at this time. Instead, this is a place for us to try out changes and gather your valuable feedback. We are excited to hear what you think about these changes.

In this update we have improved the impact of redstone wire and changed the update order around wires.

  • Redstone wire now only triggers block updates on blocks that may receive power from the wire
  • Before a line of wire causes block updates, the new signal strength of all connected wires is set

New update order around redstone wires:

  • When a line of wire turns on or off, the wires closer to the power source will cause block updates first
  • When two wires have the same distance to the power source, which of them causes updates first is picked at random
  • The order in which blocks around the wire update is based on the direction the wire received an update from
  • Currently, the order is: back, front, left, right, down, up where left and right may be swapped depending on the random choice made by the line of wire
  • When the updates are further distributed through solid blocks, the same order is applied there

How to try it out:

To enable the redstone changes, go to the Experiments menu and select "Redstone Experiments" when creating a new world.

You can find all previous changelogs in the Knowledge Base in Snapshot Information and Changelogs.

Avatar
Registered User shared this idea

105 Comments

Please sign in to leave a comment.

Date Votes
Sorted by oldest
  • 17
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    This makes redstone and minecart broken!!!!!

  • 10
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    The change on the minecart and redstone powder will fully destroy the whole redstone system and nobody can build a main storage in the future.

  • 11
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    PART 1
    Hello Mojang team,

    I would like to share my opinion on a change that I believe many of us Technical Minecrafters will also share.

    Minecraft Java has always been known for its predictable behavior, which, while seemingly quirky, is the foundation for creating numerous ingenious devices that we still use today. The introduction of random mechanics could severely impact all systems and contraptions that depend on update order. These new random mechanics remind me of the Bedrock version, which, in my experience, is not ideal for Technical Minecraft due to its erratic and unreliable nature. What we truly value in Minecraft Java is its consistency.

    Entire communities, such as those focused on Doors and 0-tick generators, rely on the predictable functioning of redstone. Many encoding mechanics based on dust could be disrupted if we can no longer reliably control the order in which they activate.

    This is quite serious, and these changes should not be made merely to resemble the Bedrock version. 
    Bedrock requires significant adjustments to redstone, and Minecraft Java has maintained a consistent and efficient redstone system since version 1.5. Even if you think this system is outdated or problematic, perhaps optimizing the code, similar to how Sodium does it, without altering the functionality of any components, could be considered...

  • 17
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    Please no

  • 6
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    Changes to redstone and minecarts, etc., have severely impacted the current mainstream player design, which is devastating to the community's efforts, and I hope to abandon this change for now

  • 6
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    We need:

    only keep the Redstone power changes.

    Restore the unconditional second-tier neighboring updates for Redstone (this must revert to the previous version).

    Fix the Redstone update order so that it doesn’t change with the signal source.

  • 4
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    I'm not fully against this update: even if it breaks a lot of existing machines, performance is a pretty good reason to change the redstone dust update range, if the performance gain is significant.

    But the randomness is a deal-breaker: no one wants randomness instead of directionality/locationality. As developers you should understand this, imagine if your "for" loops had a random chance to skip the last iteration, it would be unusable. "But you can still use a while loop", sure, but everyone knows that for loops are more practical in most cases, why would you make it unusable and point to an alternative when you can just let people use it like they've always used it?

    Parity is not a good reason to make it work this way. Everyone knows that full parity is impossible, why go out of your way to piss-off half the community for something that's unrealistic?

    Also I don't have an opinion on power based update order, I don't have enough experience with it, I just know that randomness is a No-No.

    The new redstone torch texture is fine tho.

  • 6
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    I'm glad you want to reduce the lag caused by redstone wire. But it's not wise to change the block update of redstone wire. It will ruin many machines based on this features. And it will also cause some bugs. For example, place iron trapdoor(or redstone lamp) and redstone dust, then place and destroy the redstone torch at the diagonal of the iron trapdoor(or redstone lamp)  to turn on and turn off the wire, the trapdoor(or redstone lamp) will be in the wrong state.

  • 4
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    I might have constructive criticism: I'm also not a fan of the current redstone changes, but specifically I'm not a fan of them being applied to Redstone Dust. But I think we could have our cake and eat it too.

    1) How about creating a new redstone connector with redstone and copper? Redstone dust would retain quasi-connectivity and the new copper wire would only update blocks it is directly connected to. Both wire types would not connect to or cross over the other.

    2) Likewise, it could operate on a principle of 'one input, one output" like a true electric circuit. Therefore the copper wire can't 'turn into itself' like dust can. If players are only working with one wire at a time, then adjacency to the power source determining update order might not cause as many headaches.

    3) Randomness is not a solution, but I think if the goal is to make the redstone rules more clear then it is step in the right direction. I'd personally make it possible to more precisely time wire updates and delays so randomness, while present, never becomes a factor. There at least needs to be some way to choose which component you want to trigger.

  • 2
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    I really like the new minecart max speed customisation. I hope there'll be new rails or something like that, maybe something to do with copper to make new rails or powered rails with different speed levels to control/slow/speed up minecarts.

  • 2
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    I think it's much more logical now and you can make a lot of new things possible.

    The randomness is something that can still be argued about, but on the whole very good.

  • 15
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    Please revert this!

  • 15
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    This will destroy a lot of contraptions.
    DO NOT IMPLEMENT THIS!!

  • 7
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    Please revert which blocks are updated and update order (please don't include any randomness).

    Happy to see redstone dust is getting looked at, but this isn't a very good start. The Alternate Current mod or Carpet mod's 'fastRedstoneDust` would both be much better directions to go in.

  • 7
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    This is break change rather than "optimization". Please don't modify anything until you truely understand the whole redstone system.

    In my perspective, I don't really care about the lag from redstone - most of the time, the major lags are from entities such as items and villagers. But I do saw some interesting redstone ideas had been buried in this feedback forum for years, like this one:

    https://feedback.minecraft.net/hc/en-us/community/posts/360076633112-Comparator-side-input-powered-by-Copper-Block-Java-

  • 4
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    Rather than complaining about the new changes, I actually like them! I hope that this is the start of Redstone Parity between Java and Bedrock. I'm here to actually suggest a few changes all from bedrock for the next update.

    - Redstone Wire auto-connects to pistons
    - Redstone Wire doesn't get destroyed on top of pistons when they're activated
    - Redstone Wire placeable on Structure Void
    - Redstone Repeaters, Redstone Comparators, Trip Wire, Trip Wire Hook, Button, Hoppers, Levers, and Pistons are all waterloggable.

    - Moveable Tile Entities

  • 5
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    I think the redstone update order changes are amazing, Locationality and Directionality have no place in this game, people shouldn't have to think about orientation and location when copying builds.

    The block update range changes, however, seem counterproductive. They break too many existing mechanisms without providing a replacement to be a viable solution.

  • 6
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    Why are you just can't add new additional optimized version of redstone dust? Like bluestone, copper wiring, sniffer's balls or something? This new experimental feature is breaking last 14 years of redstone community's work. Do not rework old good redstone dust, just add something new, it's not so hard, couse you already have code for new redstone element. And revert the copper bulb downgrade, please.

  • 4
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    Awesome experiment
    Delete redstone mechanic in next update, please

  • 8
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    It is really nice to optimize the redstone. But such an update destroy at least 70% of the previous mechanical restone machines , and also at least 30% of survival-tech machines. The Minecraft community in China is on the edge of ERUPTION, and this update maybe the last fuse to ignite the redstone engineers’ anger. Hope you can consider it carefully and revert the changes.

  • 4
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    The redstone wire evaluator is fast and compact, and generally results in deterministic behavior, which is a huge plus. In my eyes, it has a few flaws though: the order of block updates, and the randomness for ambiguous cases.

    Block updates are emitted only after all the power changes have been carried out. While this generally makes sure the evaluator is not interrupted in the middle of carrying out power changes, It also risks breaking e.g. very basic 0-tick generators. I suspect this is partially why wires no longer update not-connected adjacent blocks, which comes at the cost of breaking other circuits instead. A proper fix would integrate block updates into the update queue, this would keep the update order the same but ensure some parity with previous versions. But this is not feasible without circumventing the new neighbor updater system introduced in 1.19. Another solution is to emit block updates in the reverse order in which wires are updated. But that then detracts from the intuitiveness of the new system. Both solutions have a cost and I am not sure what the best route to take is (and other solutions can yet be explored).

  • 6
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    The problem I see with the randomness is that, while locationality and directionality are unwanted, randomness does not fix the underlying issue: the game allows such ambiguous cases to occur, and can then behave in different ways. Whether it's locationality, directionality, or randomness, all three make redstone builds broken if you change the context, and debugging that is hard. Randomness does not make the debugging easier, it just brings the problem to light a little faster. But that comes at the cost of making any ambiguous cases completely unusable.

    Part of what makes people love redstone is its quirks. Little details that were not intended to but have big consequences because they can be exploited in unique ways. Introducing randomness instead kills that aspect of it.

  • 2
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    I really like, that redstone now updates in order of signal strength instead of locationality.

    I also dont mind that redstone now only updates powerable blocks, because it improves the performance of redstone contraptions. I know that these changes will break a lot of old contraptions but if you care about that you cant really change anything about existing features.

    The randomness when the new system cant decide however is absolutely unacceptable. This kind of intentional randomness unnecissarilly complicates the redstone design process. I think that when the new system can’t decide the game should rely on the old locational system to decide what gets powered first to ensure the contraption always works after you’ve built it.

  • 13
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    PART 2
    I urge you to reconsider this decision It is disheartening to see that the Technical Community, which often makes significant contributions, is not always heard. I am not sure if there is a reason behind this, whether it is because we always find exploits, duplication glitches, or new ways to perform update suppression. You even released a version patching this issue again. I just hope this time you listen to us, as what we really want is to see improvements, not regressions. I remember how the copper bulb mechanic, which started off well, was changed, and after receiving technical community feedback that was not heeded, nothing was done, and this component is no longer as exciting as when it was first introduced

    Instead of altering the behavior of redstone dust, perhaps you should revert the copper bulb original behavior to operate at 1gt

    I am confident that you can improve performance without compromising existing mechanics. I trust you will make a decision that benefits the entire community. Many people use these mechanics to build farms, and not everyone is a redstone expert. As a content creator and redstone enthusiast, I see this change as negative. Imagine a new player, who has learned the classic mechanics, now having to relearn everything due to the implemented changes

    Please don’t ruin what we already have.

    Best regards Emir Aleph, and TMC
    Blessings to all. <3

  • 6
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    There are both good and bad changes here. The power propagation rewrite gets a huge thumbs-up from me. Redstone dust lag and locationality have been long overdue for a fix. I'll talk more about this but first I want to point out the biggest flaw with the experimental changes.

    Redstone wire now only triggers block updates on blocks that may receive power from the wire

    This causes two kinds of issues:

    1. Blocks that are powered by the wire through Quasi-Connectivity, i.e. they are QC powered, are not updated.
    2. Adjacent blocks that are not powered by the wire are not updated.

    Issue 1. is the biggest problem. This behavior is used extensively and a majority of breakages in this snapshot will be caused by this change.

    Luckily there is a fairly simple solution: for every block update emitted to a side of or below a wire, also emit a block update to the block below that. This ensures that every block within a range of 2 that is QC-powered by a wire will be updated, which is what happens in 1.21.1 and below as well.

    Issue 2. is smaller, though still not desirable. Unfortunately I think it's also harder to fix without breaking something else.

  • 4
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    About redstone -other people already said everything. But, I would like to see that the fps limiting function could be turned off completely. I think it is not difficult, and for players like me, who need the game with high fps both during unfocused and during AFK - this will help a lot

  • 5
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    Employees at Mojang I understand that you were trying to make the game better, but you have ruined Redstone by making quazi-connectivity non existent, I know I speak for many players when I say, please go back to the way it was before this update.

  • 1
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    This change is amazing, however the redstone only giving block updates to blocks it can directly power is a bit annoying, however if you added a new version of redstone that does provide block updates, it could provide the best of both worlds. Maybe this variant of redstone could be obtained by right clicking on the redstone with something like glowstone?

  • 6
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    There have been mod implementations that reduce redstone lag without breaking everything. These experimental features make redstone less fun. When changing how dust works, try to account for what would be more fun for redstoners

  • 4
    Registered User commented
    Comment actions Permalink

    You are certaianly on the right track with this one but there are some changes which might need a little bit of tweaking ( although I wouldn' completely revert them )

    - Personally, I am of the opinion that the update order, although not that well accepted by many, is actually a good change. Depending on locationality/directionality is a bad practice anyways.
    - The reduction of redstone dust updates will break a lot of things but that is I believe an ok sacrifice for the performance boost, as long as other components (i.e. repeaters, observers, etc. ) keep their update logic

    - Minecarts are now no longer held by a block when on a sloped rail which is used at least somewhere in pretty much any cart-dependent machine and would be detremental
    - The new minecart physics have some inconsistencies and should preferably be nudged in the direction to keep as many of the now used components such as mangrove elevators, cart-stack separators, etc.

    Overall, there are a lot of positive changes to this but if released as is, it would absolutely be one of the most hated updates by the redstone comunity